[zenia]

tak
kocica w tym okresie,laktacji,karmienia
wylizuje i siebie nadmiernie(juz przed porodwm)jak i po
i maluchy
u mnie własnie w tym czasie często dochodzi do zatkania,lub cofek
musze zwracac uwage na częstsze podanie odkłaczaczy
ale nie za dużo
bo wylizując maluchy,moje sa takie w gotowości "lużnej kupy"

[Ines]

Ja nie podaję żadnych sztucznych odkłaczaczy, żeby nie upośledzać wchłaniania wartości odżywczych, które są teraz kotce i maluchom tak bardzo potrzebne. Mam nadzieję, że trawa i babka wystarczą, mam jeszcze plan B pod postacią szparagów

[zenia]

ja zazwyczaj babkę

[Ines]

Ja też babkę, spisuje się rewelacyjnie

[situnia]

Słuchajcie, pojawiła się (na jednej z zamkniętych grup hodowców na facebooku) wypowiedź jednej hodowczyni. Chciałabym znać Waszą opinię, co mogło kociakom zaszkodzić. Wszystko wskazuje na pierwszy rzut oka, że koty miały nadmiar czegoś, teks po angielsku, z dodatkowymi niektórymi komentarzami pod tekstem:

"WARNING: CEREBELLAR HYPOPLASIA. I read posted to a friend's Timeline that he is adding supplements to his raw meat. I believe it warrants a warning so no one else will have to experience the absolute horror of what I went through years ago.

The cause of the heartbreak was after I followed a raw meat recipe from a veterinary Web site. She recommended adding:

• Fish Oil
• Vitamin E
• Vitamin B-complex
• Taurine

I purchased these products from a people health food store, and added them in the recommended dosage. Four of my girls were eating it during gestation and while nursing their kittens. All four litters were born with kittens that did not know right side up from down, no sense of balance, they continually curled into fetal positions towards their tails, and two litters were so affected they could not even nurse on their own. I supplemented them for 7 days as well as holding them onto their mother's nipples so they could nurse, but when their symptoms did not improve I took them to the vet and two entire beautiful litters were euthanized.

The third litter out of the four had kittens affected at various degrees. At about 2 weeks of age, one kitten in particular was so affected he could not crawl, he would lie almost fully paralyzed on his side screaming. My vet had not been able to come up with a reason why this was happening. It is similar to what happens if one vaccinates a pregnant queen for Panleukopenia; the kittens are born with severe balance issues. But my girls were not vaccinated during gestation. Then I had one of those aha moments...I suddenly realized it had to be the supplements. I had just had the two litters euthanized and was within hours of taking this paralyzed kitten in.

Immediately I switched mom to raw without supplements and within 24 hours the paralyzed kitten was right side up, crawling, and nursing. He and his 4 siblings fully recovered.

Our fourth and oldest litter of 9 week old kittens had a brown boy that was literally walk on his front pasterns (could not straight out his front legs) while his sister the snow girl was walking with her head severely twisted to one side (like the exorcist.) Not only had they nursed from a mother on the supplements but at this age they were eating the meat themselves. After removing the supplements they too began to improve, but more slowly. A wonderful lady adopted them both in spite of their issues, and they did come close to a full recovery although balance and vertical jumping issues remained.

For many years now I don't add anything to raw meat except egg yolk (weekly) and probiotics. Have never again had a litter with cerebellar hypoplasia> Our litters are extremely healthy. No diarrhea issues either - but that's another topic.

I did want to investigate to learn which supplement(s) caused the brain damage, but my vet said it would cost a minimum of $6,000.00 to even have a lab start the tests and there was no guarantee we'd ever learn which it was.

The vet Web site with the raw meat recipe where I took the advice on the supplements does have other excellent information about feeding raw:

http://www.catinfo.org/"

Wybrane komentarze:

"This is just a guess... but if it happened in a human I would suspect Vitamin D poisoning. It's even worse if you eat a high fat diet because Vitamin D is so heavily fat soluble (eg nursing mammals). My guess would be that the fish oil is to blame...This is just a guess... but if it happened in a human I would suspect Vitamin D poisoning. It's even worse if you eat a high fat diet because Vitamin D is so heavily fat soluble (eg nursing mammals). My guess would be that the fish oil is to blame..."

"Also, a friend who was adding only Taurine powder had several litters with cerebellar hypoplasia. She called them "upside down" kittens because they couldn't right themselves, and like mine, they were also curling their back and staying in a fetal position. So - for her - it was the Taurine.:

"I can't remember what type of fish oil it was...I threw all of it out. But it could very well have been salmon oil."

"Heavy metal poisoning (mercury, lead) can also cause those symptoms."

" I had a very similar experience. Lost more than 2 litters. And add another issue as well that I now believe may have been related to supplements.

I almost decided to quit breeding. Then, I converted to commercial food. But Wasn't very happy with that.... After much reading, I decided the balance (ratio) of organ meats was not correct plus I used supplements (less than recommended). But i decided that the sad problems with my babies was related to using a raw diet- with a recipe similar to the one you mentioned and supplements. Now, I offer a dry commercial food a d a plain raw diet. I use supplements occasionally- based on a wholistic analysis of the cat or kitten. Since changing - we've had Healthy cats and kittens. Feeding a raw recipe means the breeder needs to be very careful and understand (s best possible) feline nutritional needs and ratios. Imagining what a cat would find and CATCH and EAT in a day or couple of days is a pretty good criteria and measure.... and a lot more! Even though commercially prepared foods aren't perfect; they may be best for many breeders."

"There are several possible issues and information you did not provide, or may not provide after such long time - how rich in fat the diet was, how big variety of meat you used, what was the origin of meat (for example in Scandinavia meat is low in iodine), what brands of supplements you have used (any preservatives or additions in there), or even if you used a cod liver oil instead of fish oil... Was meat de-blooded and did you supplement with iron and folic acid during pregnancy (or added enough egg yolk to your mix). Did you use meaty bones in it? What about potassium levels? Role of omega 6 and omega 3 is already investigated: interesting article: http://onlinelibrary.wile.../jvim.12033/pdf . Many breeders successfully use supplements in their raw feeding for pregnant cats and kittens."

"Besides the supplements the raw ratio recipe is 18 pounds whole chickens and 1 1/2 pounds raw liver. I've continued to use the raw ratio for years, but of course without the supplements. Have not had hypoplasia since stopping supplements - nor did we have hypoplasia before adding supplements."

"actually vitamins B are water-soluble. It is known that in certain conditions excess of water soluble vitamins is not dealt with. In humans "too much vitamin B6 can cause nerve problems.." Ruth Frechman, MS, RD. I am BARF feeding for few years now, including during gestation, while nursing and for kittens. I have never had cerebellar hypoplasia. I use more supplements than the ones you mentioned (and in different proportions). Without more details it is hard to do any analyse. Known causes of cerebellar hypoplasia are viral, drugs (for ringworms), inoculation for panleukopenia AND malnutrition (for example low zink) AND poisoning (mercury). Some of the products sold in heath stores are fortified with additional vitamins (often vitamin E plus A, fish oil often with A and D), so it is easy to overdose the vitamins. Similar symptoms may give low potassium and sodium too (iodine salt is in the recipe but you do not mention it) yet the recovery of the kittens without supplementation is unlikely (unless you started to give wet and dry commercial food - they are rich in sodium to encourage drinking to it may balance it out). Baby kittens are very sensitive to trace elements and heavy metal toxins, here you have more about mercury poisoning: http://onlinelibrary.wile...180216/abstract , http://onlinelibrary.wile...080309/abstract . I hope you understand why there are so many questions regarding your warning and why we would wish to have more details."

osoba, u której wystapił problem: "For raw food, I purchase whole chicken fryers and raw liver from our local butcher. When it comes to raw, I just trust it better if I do the grinding at home. I know the bone to meat ratio is correct, that the meat is fresh, that my grinder is clean (i.e. did not grind pork previous), I'm in control of keeping chickens cold and fast freezing. Also, I can change plates depending on how fine I want the meat - finer grind for young kittens. Recipe: 18 pounds whole chicken; 1 1/2 pounds liver. In the morning I add a Probiotic to food for kittens from 4 weeks of age until they go to their new homes."

[Ines]

Nic nie możemy stwierdzić na pewno, nie znając przepisu - autorka nie jest w stanie go przytoczyć... Ale to, że nie jest pewna, jaki olej z ryby dawała - w przepisie mogło np chodzić o olej z łososia, a ona mogła dawać tran i nieszczęście gotowe...

[situnia]

To jest pierwsza myśl, która przychodzi do głowy, to fakt. Co jeszcze mogło spowodować coś takiego? Jak myślicie? Oczywiście teraz można tylko spekulować.

[Bianka 4]

A u mnie zapaliła się "czerwona lampka" jak przeczytałam to: "I purchased these products from a people health food store". Tak naprawdę nie wiadomo co kupiła... co zawierały te suplementy i czy faktycznie dobrze dawkowała...

[situnia]

Z drugiej strony skoro ona pisze, że przy dodawaniu samej tauryny mioty też były chore, to może właśnie tauryna była nieodpowiednia? Kupiona w ludzkim sklepie z jakimiś dodatkami nieszkodliwymi dla ludzi, nieszkodliwymi dla dorosłych kotów, a szkodliwymi dla płodów?

Dagnes, może ty masz jakiś pomysł?

[dagnes]

[Ines]

[dagnes]

Ines, nie wiem ile to jest możliwie najmniej. Z pewnością to sprawa indywidualna i w tym przypadku jesteś raczej skazana na metodę prób i błędów. Spróbuj podawać jakąś naprawdę niewielką ilość (rozumiem, że do tej pory panna nie dostawała węgli wcale?) i obserwuj. A może jest to też kwestia tego, z czego te węglowodany pochodzą? Popróbuj różne warzywa, może coś kotce przypasuje i okaże się mniejszym wywoływaczem kamienia.

[Ines]

Zwykle nie dostaje ani odrobinę węglowodanów. Obecnie je mieszankę z węglami na poziomie 2,5% z pietruszką (ze względu na największą zawartość selenu z widocznych w kalku warzyw), z modyfikacjami z wątku zębowego. Codziennie czyszczę jej też zęby gazikiem nasączonym szałwią i wydaje mi się, że powoli wychodzimy ze stanem paszczy na prostą.

[Nitka]

Ta pietruszka to jest gotowana czy surowa?

[Ines]

Gotowana, jak kazde warzywo w barfie dla kotow :)